The Scumbag's List discussion

[grateful1]

[quote author=Bill86 link=topic=11043.msg59750#msg59750 date=1317271431]
I agree with the idea of "A" scumbagslist. The problems IMHO are:

1. According to this thread, (I'm not questioning you at all Moki, and I believe you when you say you have no say in who goes on the list), ONE person decides ultimately who is put on this list? I disagree with this idea so much. It's not even close to fair.....
"How would you set it up?"

2. Many forums are completely excluded from the list. I don't see why? Their scumbags don't get put on your list? I agree you cannot monitor every forum....but perhaps taking their admins word with who has been banned or made bad trades.
"There are no scumbag POS admins?"

3. Some of the reasons people are put on the list are bull$hit. Gouger? Well fuck, you could put half the people here on that list. If resellers are going on the list, there are quite a few people here who almost blatantly buy boxes of CC's (in mass quantities) from vendors and tag on $30-$40 bucks and sell them RIGHT back to the masses. Note - these people have TONS of great feedback they don't deserve.
"That's why the list is a guide!:

4. Most of the time when you click for details there are none. So with zero evidence we are to believe these people are indeed scumbags?
"Probably old issuance and the discussions were on CF."

I'd kinda like to get some answers on this.......

/end... not really a rant, just a mere questioning of the legitimacy and relevance of the scumbagslist.

:beer:

[/quote]


The Master and Insight are two folks who have the support of CF...as welll as others. Both went off the data provided and the feedback from others. Also, if someone is ON the list and thinks they should not be...then they can present information to the contrary.

But...I'm sure if you're looking for the job you can apply! ;)
:bigup:

[rsmoore27]

As someone that's relatively new to the online world of cigars (been lurking for a little over a year, but posting rarely), I'd like to chime in that the Scumbag list is more than helpful to those just starting out in the community.  On more than one occasion, I've referred to the list to make sure I'm not about to engage in a transaction with someone with a bad rep.

Regarding the questions/complaints/fairness of the Scumbag's list that were mentioned above, I don't necessarily think that Moki or Insight really owe anyone an explanation.  Given that the List is completely independent of OLH (and CF and other forums for that matter), they're completely free to run the list as they see fit.  If someone doesn't agree with the way it's run, they have two options - ignore the list completely (and trade blind), OR start your own list. 

All in all, rather than complain about how it's run, I think we should be more complimentary of the time these gentlemen take out of their schedules to host and moderate the List.

[chenvt]

[quote author=rsmoore27 link=topic=11043.msg59761#msg59761 date=1317305342]
As someone that's relatively new to the online world of cigars (been lurking for a little over a year, but posting rarely), I'd like to chime in that the Scumbag list is more than helpful to those just starting out in the community.  On more than one occasion, I've referred to the list to make sure I'm not about to engage in a transaction with someone with a bad rep.

Regarding the questions/complaints/fairness of the Scumbag's list that were mentioned above, I don't necessarily think that Moki or Insight really owe anyone an explanation.  Given that the List is completely independent of OLH (and CF and other forums for that matter), they're completely free to run the list as they see fit.  If someone doesn't agree with the way it's run, they have two options - ignore the list completely (and trade blind), OR start your own list. 

All in all, rather than complain about how it's run, I think we should be more complimentary of the time these gentlemen take out of their schedules to host and moderate the List.
[/quote]

best first post ever

[beparrish]

[quote author=chenvt link=topic=11043.msg59762#msg59762 date=1317305691]
best first post ever
[/quote]

Agreed !!!

That said, I thank Phil (Insight) for doing this thankless job.  (Wait, is it still a thankless job since I just thanked him ??). I know that Phil doesn't take this responsibility lightly, and requests the input of others before making a decision.

And Re: the folks (Avi) that are trying to get their names off of the list. Not sure that will ever happen. But it'll darn straight [b]never [/b] happen if you are unwilling admit to your mistake, apologize to the person you screwed over and make good on anyone or anything you owe.

I'd also suggest that insinuating that Moki is lying is also not going to put someone in good graces on this web-site or several others.

[fuentesmoker]

[quote author=Hutch link=topic=11043.msg59720#msg59720 date=1317232188]
Because product flippers flip product and whiners whine ?
[/quote]
LOL
:rotf:

[fuentesmoker]

[quote author=rsmoore27 link=topic=11043.msg59761#msg59761 date=1317305342]
As someone that's relatively new to the online world of cigars (been lurking for a little over a year, but posting rarely), I'd like to chime in that the Scumbag list is more than helpful to those just starting out in the community.  On more than one occasion, I've referred to the list to make sure I'm not about to engage in a transaction with someone with a bad rep.

Regarding the questions/complaints/fairness of the Scumbag's list that were mentioned above, I don't necessarily think that Moki or Insight really owe anyone an explanation.  Given that the List is completely independent of OLH (and CF and other forums for that matter), they're completely free to run the list as they see fit.  If someone doesn't agree with the way it's run, they have two options - ignore the list completely (and trade blind), OR start your own list. 

All in all, rather than complain about how it's run, I think we should be more complimentary of the time these gentlemen take out of their schedules to host and moderate the List.
[/quote]

[quote author=chenvt link=topic=11043.msg59762#msg59762 date=1317305691]
best first post ever
[/quote]

[quote author=beparrish link=topic=11043.msg59766#msg59766 date=1317308725]
Agreed !!!

That said, I thank Phil (Insight) for doing this thankless job.  (Wait, is it still a thankless job since I just thanked him ??). I know that Phil doesn't take this responsibility lightly, and requests the input of others before making a decision.

And Re: the folks (Avi) that are trying to get their names off of the list. Not sure that will ever happen. But it'll darn straight [b]never [/b] happen if you are unwilling admit to your mistake, apologize to the person you screwed over and make good on anyone or anything you owe.

I'd also suggest that insinuating that Moki is lying is also not going to put someone in good graces on this web-site or several others.
[/quote]

I agree, both of these- well said.

:clap:

[moki]

[quote author=Bill86 link=topic=11043.msg59750#msg59750 date=1317271431]
I agree with the idea of "A" scumbagslist. The problems IMHO are:

1. According to this thread, (I'm not questioning you at all Moki, and I believe you when you say you have no say in who goes on the list), ONE person decides ultimately who is put on this list? I disagree with this idea so much. It's not even close to fair.....

2. Many forums are completely excluded from the list. I don't see why? Their scumbags don't get put on your list? I agree you cannot monitor every forum....but perhaps taking their admins word with who has been banned or made bad trades.

3. Some of the reasons people are put on the list are bull$hit. Gouger? Well fuck, you could put half the people here on that list. If resellers are going on the list, there are quite a few people here who almost blatantly buy boxes of CC's (in mass quantities) from vendors and tag on $30-$40 bucks and sell them RIGHT back to the masses. Note - these people have TONS of great feedback they don't deserve.

4. Most of the time when you click for details there are none. So with zero evidence we are to believe these people are indeed scumbags?

I'd kinda like to get some answers on this.......

/end... not really a rant, just a mere questioning of the legitimacy and relevance of the scumbagslist.

:beer:

[/quote]

I'm not going to address all of the points in detail, but the people who are on the list "without evidence" were placed there before we took over the list.  I trust the judgement of the folks who put them on the list in the first place, so they remain.

However for anyone who has been put on the list since then, we've been very careful to accumulate links, archived evidence, etc.

As for whether you consider some of the reason people are on the list to be "BS reasons", I don't really care.  Make you own list, with your own standards.  

And yes, I would put half of the people here on the list if they engaged in this gouging on CF or other forums.  Here, the point of the site is gouging, so it makes sense that Wade has no interest in the list.

On CF, CP, and other cigar forums, gouging is not accepted.  The trading forums exist to allow members to engage in trading, not as a place to set up shop, and they are not central to the purpose of the sites.  So if you want to trade at fair prices with fellow enthusiasts, they are protected trading environments where you will not be ass-raped for the price, trade there or with people you know.

The list is a reference, and  permanent records of misdeeds.  People can feel free to use it or ignore it as they choose to.

[moki]

[quote author=Bill86 link=topic=11043.msg59750#msg59750 date=1317271431]just a mere questioning of the legitimacy and relevance of the scumbagslist.[/quote]

On what grounds, "Bill86", are you questioning the legitimacy of the scumbags list?

[ShortStory]

Ineresting....

Avioli/X man... Hmmm.

More too come  :popcorn:

[dpatt]

I don't think the list should be or even can be the end all be all of your cigar buying or selling activities. But it is a great resource to start ones investigation as to who you want to do business with. The decision is up to you, so take advantage of all the information available and the list can be a good starting place. Remember where there's smoke there might be fire, or maybe just a cigar smoker. Be careful out there people.  :bigup: