The Scumbag's List discussion

[moki]

I wouldn't normally post about this here in this forum, but a member here, avioli, has questioned my role in the Scumbag's List, and I prefer to clarify things in public.

First, here's a brief history regarding the Scumbag's List.  It's from memory, so I may have left a few things out, but here we go.

The Scumbag's List was around for a long time; I offered to host the list on one of my servers back in 2007 or so.  At the time, the list was just a static HTML page, and it was difficult to update.  Harris was the master of the list at the time, and he had me doing the actual HTML updates.

[url=http://lounge.cigarfamily.com/showthread.php?t=185191]http://lounge.cigarfamily.com/showthread.php?t=185191[/url]

I converted the list into a Wiki page, so that it was easy to update, and so that all changes to the list were archived.  You could roll back to see any changes that were made, and by whom.

I didn't make the judgement call on who would go on the list, and who would not.  I simply hosted the site, and would update it for Harris if he asked me to.

Harris then went MIA for several years, and the list was in stasis.  A number of important people were pending that really should be put on the list, but I refused to be the one who made that judgement.  I believe in a separation of powers, I did not want to be both hosting/updating the list and also deciding who goes onto it.

I posted on CF several times about the situation:

[url=http://lounge.cigarfamily.com/showthread.php?t=221401]http://lounge.cigarfamily.com/showthread.php?t=221401[/url]

...and in the end, Insight took up the thankless job of maintaining it, and I continued to host it.  I also registered the domain name for it in 2010:

[url=http://www.scumbagslist.com/]http://www.scumbagslist.com/[/url]

I continued to have no role in who goes on the list.  It is true that I am friends with Insight, and we discuss things on occasion, but it is ultimately his decision in conjunction with any counsel he's sought as to who goes on the list, and when.

I recently redid the backend software used to power the list, utilizing a CMS system that makes things both easier to maintain, and also presents the list in a better way.  It adds the ability to archive evidence used in each case more easily.

I think this separation of powers combined with the ability to document everything extensively gives the list more credibility.  If any one individual held the ultimate power of hosting and maintaining the list, I think it would be less credible.

Avioli, if you believe you are on the Scumbag's List errantly, present your case.  But please understand that when you PM me saying you don't believe that I have no role in deciding who goes on the list, after I tell you that I do not, that you are effectively saying that I am lying to you.

I am not.

Also, here is Harris discussing the Scumbag's List, in reference to Avioli:

[url=http://lounge.cigarfamily.com/showthread.php?t=239359]http://lounge.cigarfamily.com/showthread.php?t=239359[/url]

[plush]

thanks for the clarification Moki. 

[bpegler]

[quote author=plush link=topic=11043.msg59703#msg59703 date=1317221924]
thanks for the clarification Moki. 
[/quote]
And thanks as well for all the work you put into this.

[insight]

Avi you admitted openly to doing what you were added for.  Why are we still talking about this when nothing has changed?

[Hutch]

Because product flippers flip product and whiners whine ?

[AlohaStyle]

[quote author=insight link=topic=11043.msg59707#msg59707 date=1317226424]
Why are we still talking about this when nothing has changed?
[/quote]

No doubt...  :horse:

No disrespect to you Moki as the list is a service to everyone, but can we delete this thread?  LOL

[moki]

[quote author=AlohaStyle link=topic=11043.msg59727#msg59727 date=1317236211]
No doubt...   :horse:

No disrespect to you Moki as the list is a service to everyone, but can we delete this thread?  LOL
[/quote]

It's probably marginally useful anyway, in case anyone is wondering about the Scumbag's List in general so... can't hurt I suppose.

[Bill86]

I agree with the idea of "A" scumbagslist. The problems IMHO are:

1. According to this thread, (I'm not questioning you at all Moki, and I believe you when you say you have no say in who goes on the list), ONE person decides ultimately who is put on this list? I disagree with this idea so much. It's not even close to fair.....

2. Many forums are completely excluded from the list. I don't see why? Their scumbags don't get put on your list? I agree you cannot monitor every forum....but perhaps taking their admins word with who has been banned or made bad trades.

3. Some of the reasons people are put on the list are bull$hit. Gouger? Well fuck, you could put half the people here on that list. If resellers are going on the list, there are quite a few people here who almost blatantly buy boxes of CC's (in mass quantities) from vendors and tag on $30-$40 bucks and sell them RIGHT back to the masses. Note - these people have TONS of great feedback they don't deserve.

4. Most of the time when you click for details there are none. So with zero evidence we are to believe these people are indeed scumbags?

I'd kinda like to get some answers on this.......

/end... not really a rant, just a mere questioning of the legitimacy and relevance of the scumbagslist.

:beer:

[MoeCizlak]

[quote author=Bill86 link=topic=11043.msg59750#msg59750 date=1317271431]
I agree with the idea of "A" scumbagslist. The problems IMHO are:

1. According to this thread, (I'm not questioning you at all Moki, and I believe you when you say you have no say in who goes on the list), ONE person decides ultimately who is put on this list? I disagree with this idea so much. It's not even close to fair.....

2. Many forums are completely excluded from the list. I don't see why? Their scumbags don't get put on your list? I agree you cannot monitor every forum....[b]but perhaps taking their admins word with who has been banned or made bad trades. [/b]

3. Some of the reasons people are put on the list are bull$hit. Gouger? Well fuck, you could put half the people here on that list. If resellers are going on the list, there are quite a few people here who almost blatantly buy boxes of CC's (in mass quantities) from vendors and tag on $30-$40 bucks and sell them RIGHT back to the masses. Note - these people have TONS of great feedback they don't deserve.

4. Most of the time when you click for details there are none. [b]So with zero evidence we are to believe these people are indeed scumbags? [/b]

I'd kinda like to get some answers on this.......

/end... not really a rant, just a mere questioning of the legitimacy and relevance of the scumbagslist.

:beer:

[/quote]

It seems like you are on both sides of the fence with the bolded parts.  You are willing to take some admin's word that someone did something worthy of being added to the list and then in #4 you are questioning why someone is on there with no evidence.  I think the forums that don't recognize the List are the forums that remove controversial threads/posts so the likelihood of there being evidence to link to from the List would be scrubbed.  So while you are willing to accept some admin's judgement that someone is "List-worthy", they would most likely be added to the List with no supporting evidence, something you rightfully question in point #4 of your list.  I think there were only 3 or 4 people I couldn't find info on when I took the time to study the List, and they were all added years ago.  Keeping in mind that this originated at CF, it's not difficult to search the member's name there and find some info.

[canadianbeaver]

Here is a comment, take it or leave it.

As an online seller and previous powerseller of antique silver (note not cigars!!) on eBay, an entire division of eBay is devoted to this area, tied into the police, as well as the post office and the RCMP. Fraud, dishonesty and at its simplest level, taking advantage, is to be expected online.

To expect a couple of guys or less than a paid, professional body to do more than take input from the community and list it with a basic set of parameters, updated, occasionally, is unrealistic.

Caveat emptor but the list is very helpful.

CB