Fuck it....let's rock and roll!!!

[CanuckSARTech]

So, I've hummed and hawed about it for a while.  Due to some recent PMs received from Leo / "la1994" on OLH / "Lant63" on FOH, I'm outing him, and putting this all out here.

Yes, it's digging up some stuff from the past, but the continued "oh, I'm so innocent and sweet and every trade I've done has been peaches" just doesn't cut it with me.  If you effed up in the past, grow and learn from your mistake, but don't act like the innocent victim just because a few people let by-gones be by-gones.

It's gonna get dirty...  :smiley-cool:

I'll type my shit up, and then post it here for the People's Court to see...

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6zwkcDKH6E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6zwkcDKH6E[/url]

[la1994]

I have owned up to how I handled the issue and freely admit I didn't handle the PGR issue appropriately.

- You are bringing up a 2.5 year old trade that you never contacted me about in anyway. I asked you if you were pleased with what I sent and you didn't respond.  No FOH admin ever contacted me about your concerns.

- I far exceeded the valuation that you asked for in the trade.  You asked for $45 in value and I sent around $100.

- I have had flawless trades and purchases since the PGR issue.  

- You claim to have never smoked the cigars I sent you but you, "know" they aren't genuine.  

-Look at the PL Sobersalientes release,  there is glue all over those cigars.  Glue on cigars happens.  

-Send the cigars to someone and let them smoke them to be the judge lol.  

I have offered you in PM to make this right.  If you want the ashtray back, I have your address and I can send it back.  If you want more cigars I'll send those too.  

Tell me what I need to do.  This is a 2.5 year old trade for christ's sake.  

[nick2021]

I agree Leo, this is a pretty old thread....and it is good that you eventually took ownership, but just as an fyi.....I think people are too caught up on the "glue" issue....it just wasn't the glue bro, you also made a misstep on where the cigars came from lol (which for some people is an extremely important thing).  When you add that, on top of the glue issue, and then on top of everything else that subsequently happened, yeah....it was the perfect storm.....but it wasn't just the glue issue that doomed that whole transaction bro.....

[quote author=la1994 link=topic=42154.msg172081#msg172081 date=1498257452]
I have owned up to how I handled the issue and freely admit I didn't handle the PGR issue appropriately.

- You are bringing up a 2.5 year old trade that you never contacted me about in anyway. I asked you if you were pleased with what I sent and you didn't respond.  No FOH admin ever contacted me about your concerns.

- I far exceeded the valuation that you asked for in the trade.  You asked for $45 in value and I sent around $100.

- I have had flawless trades and purchases since the PGR issue.  

- You claim to have never smoked the cigars I sent you but you, "know" they aren't genuine.  

-[u][b]Look at the PL Sobersalientes release,  there is glue all over those cigars.  Glue on cigars happens.[/b][/u]  

-Send the cigars to someone and let them smoke them to be the judge lol.  

I have offered you in PM to make this right.  If you want the ashtray back, I have your address and I can send it back.  If you want more cigars I'll send those too.  

Tell me what I need to do.  This is a 2.5 year old trade for christ's sake.  


[/quote]

[la1994]

[quote author=nick2021 link=topic=42154.msg172084#msg172084 date=1498258514]
I agree Leo, this is a pretty old thread....and it is good that you eventually took ownership, but just as an fyi.....I think people are too caught up on the "glue" issue....it just wasn't the glue bro, you also made a misstep on where the cigars came from lol (which for some people is an extremely important thing).  When you add that, on top of the glue issue, and then on top of everything else that subsequently happened, yeah....it was the perfect storm.....but it wasn't just the glue issue that made doomed that whole transaction bro.....

[/quote]

That's more than a fair assessment.  Nonetheless I didn't refund Ken immediately and I should have done so. 

[TheGiver]

What's the point of this thread?

[Fshaw]

[quote author=TheGiver link=topic=42154.msg172338#msg172338 date=1499274883]
What's the point of this thread?
[/quote]

I've asked myself that same question several times.

[la1994]

[quote author=TheGiver link=topic=42154.msg172338#msg172338 date=1499274883]
What's the point of this thread?
[/quote]

Keith and I did a trade 2.5 years ago, and apparently he was not happy with the outcome. It was not that I didn't provide enough cigars, it was that he believes the cigars aren't real because of glue that was on the bands. Thus I screwed him over. He never voiced this concern with me in any way other than being passive aggressive on FOH.  I even asked him if he was happy with what I sent as a follow up a couple months later and he never responded.  I only found out about this when I reached out to him for the second time inquiring why he was acting how he was toward me. 

I think he realized that never did contact me with his concerns (He thought he had and I ignored him), or he had someone look at the cigars and they told him they were real so he never followed up on this thread. 

I have offered to send his end back (National hotel ashtray) if he isn't happy with what I sent  but he hasn't responded to that either. 

[mk05]

Well this is the perfect thread for it. I'll start it off...

[img]http://ell.h-cdn.co/assets/cm/15/01/54a78a8910eb5_-_clairedanescryface-2.gif[/img]

[CanuckSARTech]

LOL.  Awesome meme.  Good show / effed up character, LOL.

Sorry guys, just haven't had a chance to get all my thoughts together and typed up.  It is here now, but sorry for the delays.

As Leo typed a bullet-point, I'll do likewise, rather than a super-long narrative (still turned out to be a bit long - sorry all):

- I offered on FOH a simple cigars-for-ashtrays trade for Hotel Nacional ashtrays, in Jan 2015.  Said, rather than doing them at "market value", do it at simply 2x my cost, to factor in exchange losses, extra baggage costs, extra shipping costs on my end due to the heavier items, etc.  So, for this ashtray in particular, cost me $22 CUC or so, we valued it at $40, and to therefore send me that amount in cigars, for that value of cigars (ie - $5 a stick custom at cost, not $20 that market-value might see it worth).

- Leo was one of three who vouched up.  He tried to take all, or at least two.  Told him no, not in essence of trade / FOH community.

- The Party GR thing was going on here, and I had a number of FOH members, mods, and admin who contacted me, and tried to get me to ignore Leo and not follow through, and/or that I'd still be right to make it up to a 10-to-1 market valuation.  I told them I'd risk it, sort of a second-chance thing for Leo, it was "only a $40 ashtray to me".

- Leo sent me four (4) sticks, two of which were Euro regionals, which had the following coincidental issues; they had the EXACT SAME sloppy bands and glue issues as his PGR affair, and also were coincidentally two Euro regional sticks that just in the month or so previously, he had been shopping for to get as bands for his own "custom sticks" or something of the like.

- I delayed for a few weeks then, to follow up with a number of trusted friends and retailers, discuss issues and explanations.

- Regarding both this, and the PGR issue, it was also discovered / revealed to me about his searching out the RE bands as well, and the two that I received were exactly those in the three or four types he was looking for.

- Also (and here's a bit of a kicker) that Leo wasn't completely forthcoming on here during the PGR issue, as he had [u]actually purchased both the PGRs AND a box of REGULAR PRODUCTION Party Lusi's as well[/u]. 

- So, thinking about this previously-undisclosed purchase, Leo bought a 15-box of PGRs and a 10-box of reg. prod. Lusi's.

- Looking at the various pictures on that PGR thread (if I recall correctly, on pages 1, 4, and 14 or so), there appears to be a fairly distinct shade difference too, as well as the labels on those differently-shaded cigars to not be as "level" and horizontally-aligned as others.

- Not knowing about the additional box purchase, those looking through that thread might have not paid attention to, or noticed, what I and others involved in my conversations noticed; that it appeared likely that Leo took bands off of 10 PGRs, put them on reg. prod. Lusi's, and mixed them in to the PGR box, therefore reselling that PGR box, and giving him a box of 10 PGRs in a standard Lusi box, at standard Lusi prices.

- There was NO contact or attempt by Leo (or the purchaser, for that matter) to return the PGR box to the vendor to have them looked at and potentially refunded, either before, during or after the issue exploded here on OLH.  To me and others, it seems like a distinct issue where there was an attempt to NOT have the vendor get his hands on them for a proper looking over.

- Contrary to what Leo stated above, I DID attempt to contact him privately.  However, I'm unable to find those messages/PMs/emails; I've had three issues of computers crashing in the past two years, as well as FOH forum upgrades and such.  I can't find any of those messages, though I was able to find various e-mails and messages with various members/mods/admin on FOH and other friends where I mention multiple attempts to discuss the matter with him between Feb-Dec 2015.  I have saved PMs from FOH from Dec 2011 through to Sept 2013 - all others, aside from some still active on FOH from the last 6 months, are gone.  In fact, Leo himself sent me a screen grab of the actual PM conversation on FOH, where we discussed the ashtray-for-cigars trade, which I couldn't bring up on my end and even that was lost for me.  Not sure if that PM thread can be "doctored", and my responses deleted out prior to him screen grabbing it.  And I'm not 100% sure I responded to him in that particular PM thread.  But for my memory and recollection (which is what I get paid for), I am 100% sure I did message / respond to him with my concerns.  I just stashed it away of his non-follow-up to be another strike against him in the overall issues.

- Also contrary to what Leo stated, I do not proclaim to "KNOW", 100% definitively, that the sticks (or at least the 2 REs out of the 4 sticks he sent me) are fake / counterfeit / not-as-labelled.  He is correct in stating that I haven't smoked them.  Simply (as I will explain below), I have been too busy to care.

- As it relates to Leo's "this hasn't been pressing enough in 2.5 years" bullshit... During this timeline, in Feb-August of 2015, my life took a shit dive.  Father passed away (with my Mother very non-independent), work / overseas work & missions, family crisis with spouse at home to get sorted, and then Grandfather passing away, all necessitating a stress leave off of work, and still "sifting through the ashes a bit" even now.  So, Leo, and his various issues as it relates to the PGR thing as well as the sticks he sent me, all have taken a back burner.

- I still have the sticks.  I need to take further / current pictures, I know.  I need to smoke them, but I haven't smoked any 100%-confirmed-legit sticks of these before either, so I don't have anything to go on relating to them, and can't speak on the provenance as it relates to these sticks specifically on the taste/blend specifically.  Again, my assertions of suspiciousness are based on the presentation, the various cosmetic / band flaws, the repeat (coincidental?) issue specifically relating to the bands MO at the exact same timeline as his other issues, etc.  And/or, I need to send them to a trusted person who has a reference with these sticks as well.

- As it's come up with Leo, that I'm "not happy with the sticks", and his assertion that he sent me WAY MORE than what I was asking for, and that he therefore is asserting himself as the good-guy and a man-up BOTL due to the over-valuation of what he sent...not cool.  True, I only asked for a $40 valuation for that particular ashtray, and he sent me what he proclaimed to be $100 worth of cigars.  I didn't dink around with the valuations, nor even bother to look up what the actual per-stick values were of those cigars to confirm.  I didn't and don't care - that isn't/wasn't in the spirit with which we did that trade.  However, since he seems to be using that assertion (on here, and in PMs to me in the past few weeks on here), I will say this.  I only asked for a $40 valuation on an ashtray that I paid $22 CUCs or so for - an ashtray that the market, at that time and currently as well, I believe, would be fetching easily in the $200-$300 range.  In fact, I sold a nearly identical one to that one, on eBay, for $340-something, if I recall correctly.  So, his assertion that he "far exceeded the valuation" as a positive counter-point in our discussions, to try to moot out the issues of the bad sticks and/or potential other issues at play, is a ridiculous assertion to me.  He's also neglecting to mention the fact, then, that when I sent out these ashtrays, and which was not "advertised" or announced by me prior to, I sent out a small two-stick heat-sealed ziplock pack containing a single Jorgito / Club Habana LCDH Monsdale and a single Yolanda / Melia Habana LCDH piramide custom.  This was with a note for people to use them to "enjoy breaking-in your new ashtray" and as a thanks for the trade, and also in that it was in the spirit of the FOH trade set-up with these ashtrays to begin with (the mods and admin had to discuss and okay it all, as FOH's trader system, up to that time, was solely for cigar trades, but they allowed it to test out the spirit of doing things the way I proposed).  But yet, no note of him doing that - not sure if he remembers that or not, or only that his valuation of the cigars he sent was worth $100 for a lowly-$40 ashtray, and that's how he's going to remember it.

So, there we have it.

Leo / aka "la1994" / aka "stogieboy" / aka "Lant63" had the past issue with the Partagas Gran Reservas cigars, and the band kerfluffle.  That was here on OLH, though, many other BOTLs on other forums (including on FOH) were aware, as many are members on multiple forums.  I’m not.  Until just a month or so ago now, I’ve only ever been on FOH (since 2010 or so, after "guesting" since about 2007/2008) and on my own blog.  I’ve tried to stay away from things in the past, both on here and on other forums.  Too much chaff to wade through, honestly.  However, that kind of bit me in the ass with this, as I decided to give Leo that second chance.

To me, his assertion that "glue happens" is nonsensical.  It does.  However, not to the extent and QC level that it has with these repeat issues with him.  The specific window of time that this all took place, [u]his previously-undisclosed additional purchase of reg. production Lusitanias[/u], his searching for these specific RE bands, his mis-representing location-of-purchase / provenance back and forth, his explanations about money and such, his weaseling out of organizing a simple refund and sending the sticks back to the retailer, his explanations about whether he knew/didn't know about the glue on the bands before they were shipped (bad trader/shipping practices about that ALONE, by sending out cigars that look like shit, and KNOWING about it and sending those anyways), etc., etc., etc. 

At some point, all of the issues, all of the circumstantial...becomes culpability.

[la1994]

Look, I never rebranded any cigars. Believe what you want I don't really care.

I've admitted that I fucked up the PGR  sale. But selling fakes is not something I did. Not inspecting them more thoroughly before I sold them, mixing up the vendor( lcdh and foh) and not refunding immediately... Yes, I should have done better.

I never tried getting a refund for the PGR because they were returned to me damaged and one had been smoked. In addition to deciding to keep the cigars and smoke them I didn't feel it was right to ask Rob for a refund being that the box was no longer complete and some were damaged. Why would I send them back to rob and then have them sent back to me and risk confiscation?

As to your claim about replacing the cigars with a ten count box. Ten count lusi are box pressed and PGR are perfectly round. That would have stood out as a complaint and it never was. Theres no way to make a square cigar perfectly round.

You're trying to distract everyone and make this more about the PGR than about our trade.

- Did you offer a great value on the ashtray? Yes you did. Which is why I felt the need to send more than you asked for.

- Did you ever contact me? No you didnt. You have no evidence whatsoever that you reached out to me. I didnt doctor any messages either. Further if you were upset, why didn't you say anything when I asked you? Why didn't you respond in the two years almost it's been since then?

I didn't screw you over. Send the cigars to someone who has smoked them. I'm sure they will enjoy them and verify their authenticity.


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