I got sold fake Montecristo Sublimes, and was asked by the seller

[tksamtec]

[quote author=canadianbeaver link=topic=11636.msg63428#msg63428 date=1322924973]
Andrew came up with the same conclusion on my "fake" Opus X Taurus. Hey he may work taking bribes for Arturo Fuente but he can't work for Montecristo too.

:nana:

Thanks for your work you do Moki.

Lisa
[/quote]
I personally thinks he just plain knows his shit...  ;D

Thanks Andrew for taking this on.

[mikemets]

Thanks for all of your effort here Andrew.  I assume you didn't find it necessary to smoke this cigar back to back with a known "real one" as discussed.  I still beleive that the 2 cigars I smoked were completely different cigars.

Am I less sure about my declaration of them being fakes? Yes.  Am I 100% sure they are authentic? No.

As stated many times, this was never about the money.  Aaron, please PM your PP info again, and I will make you whole money wise.  In life, I always have, and always will, take the high road.

[terrantheman]

I'm curious though, what if the sample you believe to be the "real" one is actually the fake?  Did your friend actually walk into an LCDH and purchase the "real" box himself?

[moki]

[quote author=mikemets link=topic=11636.msg63432#msg63432 date=1322929026]
Thanks for all of your effort here Andrew.  I assume you didn't find it necessary to smoke this cigar back to back with a known "real one" as discussed.  I still beleive that the 2 cigars I smoked were completely different cigars.[/quote]

I did smoke it back to back with a known-good (to me) Montecristo Sublime, as I said I would.

My opinion remains the same... I don't think they are fake.  There's just no evidence, nothing suspicious, other than the bands (which are real, just the old style, which happens), and the fact that you didn't like the taste of [b]one[/b] cigar from the box you smoked.

The fact that the cigar you smoked tasted different then the "known good" cigar you had doesn't really mean much of anything.

I've given people the same exact cigar back to back in blind taste tests, and often they think they are two completely different cigars.

As I said to you in PM:

-- Smoking one cigar from the box is a horrendously small sample size to use to declare the cigars fakes.  Bad cigars happen

--Just because two cigars don't taste exactly the same, doesn't make one fake.

-- "Tastes bad" doesn't mean fake. 

Anyway, whatever, it's my opinion, I don't see any evidence to the contrary, and I'm sure you'll continue to have your opinion.

[tksamtec]

[quote author=moki link=topic=11636.msg63435#msg63435 date=1322933111]

The fact that the cigar you smoked tasted different then the "known good" cigar you had doesn't really mean much of anything.

[/quote]
I thought Mike had a couple day lag between when he smoked one of the cigars in question, versus a real one and I don't think he even smoked 2 back to back (a good one and 1 in question) on the same day. I am pretty sure I remember seeing that earlier in this thread...

The reason I bring this up is that my cigar tastes can vary day to day... I have smoked alot of authentic sticks that on 1 day I thought were absolutely amazing and 2 days later I was like "meh"... smoking 1 cigar from a box, when your taste may be off, is not any means of authenticating a box of cigars or calling them fakes.  Just my 2 cents... FWIW (not much).

[aes8]

Mike,

I won't hear of it. If you send me money than you are the one that will not be "whole". You will be short cigars and money. The donation to St. Jude's was a great move. I'm fine with leaving it the way it is now.  As I stated before this was all about reputation, mine and Ravi's.

Also thanks for keeping this a respectful disagreement. I hope others will take note and see that disagreements can be strongly debated without resorting to name calling a few posts into a thread.


Andrew,

Thanks so much for all the effort.  I really appreciate all the in-depth analysis and great pictures.

a.


[quote author=mikemets link=topic=11636.msg63432#msg63432 date=1322929026]
Thanks for all of your effort here Andrew.  I assume you didn't find it necessary to smoke this cigar back to back with a known "real one" as discussed.  I still beleive that the 2 cigars I smoked were completely different cigars.

Am I less sure about my declaration of them being fakes? Yes.  Am I 100% sure they are authentic? No.

As stated many times, this was never about the money.  Aaron, please PM your PP info again, and I will make you whole money wise.  In life, I always have, and always will, take the high road.
[/quote]

[Compitaveggie]

Not that it means much to anybody and I don't care what happens one way or the other since I don't know ANYONE involved but...

When I was in Havana in August of 2009 I went to the Partagas factory and in the VIP room they had several boxes of the 2008 Monecristo Sublime EL's. I opened a sealed box and it had the older bands. I didn't buy the box becuase they had just brought out the 2009 EL's and I bought the RYJ Duke instead. I only opened ONE box. So don't know if the rest had the newer bands.

I can also say that when I first staring smoking cigars in the summer of 08 I mainly bought Montecristo and of 9 boxes from 2008 and 1 from 2009, only 2 had the newer band, a box of Montecristo Petit Edmundos and the Sublimes 2008 El's. All the rest including a ten count box from early 2009 had the older band. These boxes were from multiple vendors as well. Still have two boxes from 2008 with the older bands, the rest have been long smoked and the boxes thrown out.

Jose

[terrantheman]

That's interesting, I've not purchased any Montes since 08 and I will say the last box I got were some Edmundos from 08 and they have the old bands.  I haven't even seen the new bands personally, weird.  Maybe my sources are all selling fakes?

[moki]

I agree with Mike and Aaron's comments. No one did anything wrong here, and the issue is not about either persons character, nor being right or wrong.

The important thing is the authenticity and provenance of the cigars. We also can learn about the variability and unreliability of taste as a sense, sample size, confirmation bias, etc.

I think everyone handled themselves well, and hopefully the process has been instructive.

[moki]

[quote author=terrantheman link=topic=11636.msg63441#msg63441 date=1322937484]
That's interesting, I've not purchased any Montes since 08 and I will say the last box I got were some Edmundos from 08 and they have the old bands.  I haven't even seen the new bands personally, weird.  Maybe my sources are all selling fakes?
[/quote]

Cuba gonna be Cuba :)