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Here is a visual comparison of an [url=http://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/brand.aspx?brand=El_Rey_del_Mundo#79_Edici|on_Regional_Italia]El Rey Del Mundo 2008 Edición Regional Italia[/url] cigar.

In each picture, on the left is the cigar that Triple Ligero sold to a well known member, and on the right is the picture of the same cigar, from a full intact box, from a trusted vendor.

First, the non-annotated picture:

[img]http://people.ambrosiasw.com/~andrew/cigars/erdm_rowby_cigars_compared1.jpg[/img]

Next I superimposed the known-good cigar over the cigar from Triple Ligero, [url=http://www.vitolas.net/displayimage.php?pos=-460]something I have found to be instructive in the past.[/url]

Notice that the image has only been moved over to the left and super-imposed, it has not been moved up or down, or scaled (as is evidenced by the tape measure on the right):

[img]http://people.ambrosiasw.com/~andrew/cigars/erdm_rowby_cigars_compared2.jpg[/img]

Finally, here is an annotated version of the first image, with some observations of discrepancies.  There are more than I've noted here, but there is no need for additional minutia, I think:

[img]http://people.ambrosiasw.com/~andrew/cigars/erdm_rowby_cigars_compared3.jpg[/img]

1) The shape of the head of the cigar is wrong; TL's cigar comes to a more bulbous, rounded point, the known-good cigar is a proper pointed belicoso tip.

2) The font and other details on the band do not exactly match; look particularly at the B in "Habana"

3) The RE band on TL's cigar is not trimmed as it should be; the silver areas is significantly longer than in the known-good cigar

4) Both of the red rectangles are exactly the same size.  Note that his allows us to see that TL's cigar is actually several ring gauges larger than the known-good cigar

5) The "crown" on the crest on TL's cigar does not match the crown on the known-good cigar on the right.  This is a different band.

6) The overall length of TL's cigar is longer than the known-good sample, but a margin larger than could be explained away by any variance.

These empirical differences are prima facie evidence that the cigar on the left is indeed counterfeit.  Though a reasonably good counterfeit.

So it's not just the highly suspect "unreleased" or "prerelease" or "diplomatic" cigars that people should be concerned about the authenticity of, imho.

I have obtained more cigars from TL, and will look into them as well.

Ruh roh.  Andrew I have a variety of samples coming in from victims (thanks to all helping out) I will do a similar examination on.  I also have a sample of one of Ryan/Limur's cigars coming in to compare with TL's.  That is one I am VERY interested in.

Moki, you are a master.  I'd love to say that this surprises me, but in the end, it's what we all expected.

Perhaps the best evidence yet....which is saying something, considering what's been offered up already is pretty much rock solid.

Amazing work Moki!  :bigup:

[quote author=insight link=topic=9302.msg51330#msg51330 date=1304699956]
Ruh roh.  Andrew I have a variety of samples coming in from victims (thanks to all helping out) I will do a similar examination on.  I also have a sample of one of Ryan/Limur's cigars coming in to compare with TL's.  That is one I am VERY interested in.
[/quote]

Obviously for cigars that are "unreleased" or "prerelease" and thus there are no known-good samples to compare them to, this is more difficult to do.

But that also makes them better cigars to counterfeit, at least for a while...

You guys are the best detectives ever... good work.  I fear that this evidence may be just the beginning of a long line of fakes, especially if this guy owns a print shop !  Yikes... and without having the known original for side-by-side comparison, I would have never picked up those minor details and flaws. You guys get the non-dancing cop.

:cop: :cop: :cop: :cop: :cop: :cop: :cop: :cop:

Nice job, Not a bad looking fake. I am surprised they did not get the second band correct. It looks like it would haven been the simple to copy. You going to take it apart?

Taking a hard look at the band the one on the left has a number of variations, and all of them look to be the kind that come from a lower quality production and while I've seen variation in bands from yr to yr or box to box I've not seen that much from something that is supposed to be a limited run.

Maybe it is lighting, but the gold looks flatter (that can happen) the border doesn't look to be embossed, the embossing around the center is either missing or very low, the triangles in the pin striping looks smudgy and not crisp, the center of the shield is not as well defined.

Like I said, I'm not a band comparison freak, but then pretty much everything I buy comes from a Habano's dealer in one place or another, and  I've seen bands vary over the years as the dies wore out and weren't replaced, and I've seen them look entirely different from the previousl yr when the did get new ones (look at the RyJ bands today and the ones from the late 90s)  but this is a limited run, I don't believe that there would be that much variation.  Pretty textbook

Unless it's lighting that is a pretty telling picture.

Oh yea, and the crown on the crest is completely wrong.

[quote author=moki link=topic=9302.msg51333#msg51333 date=1304700116]
Obviously for cigars that are "unreleased" or "prerelease" and thus there are no known-good samples to compare them to, this is more difficult to do.

But that also makes them better cigars to counterfeit, at least for a while...
[/quote]


And there you have the basis for the continuing scam, and the reason the TL hangers-on will continue to, well you know, hang on.  Rama has that going for him. His con will continue because he's able to say, "well you like the cigar, and you say it tastes Cuban, so it must be real because no one can prove it's not."  Unfortunately, for the pre-release/unreleased, you actually have to be intelligent enough to put two and two together. Identity thief, scam artist, purveyor of production fake cigars, liar, and all around waste of life could in no way be getting the cigars he claims he's getting in the quantities he claims to be getting them in.

[quote author=XTR link=topic=9302.msg51337#msg51337 date=1304700478]Like I said, I'm not a band comparison freak, but then pretty much everything I buy comes from a Habano's dealer in one place or another, and  I've seen bands vary over the years as the dies wore out and weren't replaced, and I've seen them look entirely different from the previousl yr when the did get new ones (look at the RyJ bands today and the ones from the late 90s) [b] but this is a limited run, I don't believe that there would be that much variation.[/b]  Pretty textbook

Unless it's lighting that is a pretty telling picture.

Oh yea, and the crown on the crest is completely wrong.
[/quote]

Bingo, regarding the "limited run" and the variance you'd therefor see in the bands.  ie, you would not.

As for the crown, [url=http://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/brand.aspx?brand=El_Rey_del_Mundo]have a look here.[/url]  At the top of the page you'll see the current production band for regular releases... and you'll see the current production band for special release, such as an Regional Edition or Limited Edition.